Ted Leung on the air
Ted Leung on the air: Open Source, Java, Python, and ...
Ted Leung on the air: Open Source, Java, Python, and ...
Thu, 13 Nov 2003
So what about Longhorn?
I've been collecting links about Longhorn, and mulling over what I've been reading. There have been a huge number of blog posts enumerating the various new features in Longhorn, the triad of Avalon/XAML, WinFS, and Indigo. There's not much more that I can add there, especially since I didn't go to the PDC, and didn't get the bits.
Much has been made over Microsoft's supposed flaunting of existing standards in Longhorn. Jon Udell and others have been ably keeping on top of this angle.
Then comes a long line of nay sayers proclaiming that Longhorn won't ship until 2006 and that even when it does, it won't look anything like what was shown because Microsoft always changes things around during these long timeframes.
I have to say that I am impressed by the vision for Longhorn. It's not going to get us the Knowledge Navigator (sorry Scoble). I'm impressed with Microsoft's willingness to make such a risky play. Rewriting a huge amount of system functionality with new APIs in managed code is fairly risky. But if they succeed, they are going to end up with an environment that will be pretty nice to program in, and there'll be some cool features in there. Once they get everything into managed code, people working in predominantly unmanaged environments are going to be hard pressed to keep up.
To me the real question isn't about Microsoft and Longhorn, it's about the alternative platforms, Linux and the Macintosh. The Macintosh is tough because Apple is basically saying "hey, just trust us to keep doing cool stuff". And they are doing cool stuff, there's a lot of nice stuff in Mac OS X. But let's be honest, most of this stuff is just NextStep dressed up a little bit nicer. We still have C/Objective-C/C++ at the core. We need more than that.
Linux is even worse off. Now I love Linux, but when I compare the Longhorn story with the Linux story, I get scared. Look at things like this. Operating system kernels are commodity software. The interesting stuff is moving up the food chain. I've written about this before, and Ray Ozzie discusses this in his eWeek interview. At least the Mac has NextStep/Cocoa sitting on top of FreeBSD. On Linux there's still a vacuum as far as I'm concerned. I'm not the only one who's concerned about this.
Seth Nickell has expressed the concern well. And he's doing
something about it.
I hear Miguel talking about these issues all the time. Now I disagree with some of the things that are being done in Mono -- sticking to following Microsoft's lead, but overall, I think that what the Mono team is doing is one of the most important open source projects in the long term. But we need to do better here. We need to find a way to lead, not just follow. We're running out of things to copy.
Dare followed up Miguel's post. You can call it amateur versus professional if you like. What it comes down to is making it attractive to develop and deploy software on your platform.
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16 Comments |
Ted Leung brings up some important points and collects some good links in his latest post . To quote: Once they [MS] get everything into managed code , people working in predominantly unmanaged environments are going to be hard pressed to keep up. ...
Posted by Trackback from Ian Bicking at Fri Nov 14 00:32:52 2003
Posted by Trackback from Ian Bicking at Fri Nov 14 00:32:52 2003
Macs might have C++ at the core. You say you need more than that. Can you be specific?
Another clear sharp advantage that you should realize about the MacOS is that it is available NOW.
Longhorn sure has you wrapped up with FUD. Have a nice day.
Posted by Road Warrior at Fri Nov 14 09:49:31 2003
Another clear sharp advantage that you should realize about the MacOS is that it is available NOW.
Longhorn sure has you wrapped up with FUD. Have a nice day.
Posted by Road Warrior at Fri Nov 14 09:49:31 2003
Yeah, I have to say that comparing promises of a 2006 Longhorn to the current Mac OS X is a little bit of a streach. It could very well be that Apple is working on a database based file system too but they would never tell us that until they were really about to release it. Also, if Longhorn is targeting 2006 release, then I have doubts that they will actually make that deadline based upon prior performance when releasing major new versions of the OS.
Posted by possen at Fri Nov 14 10:36:08 2003
Posted by possen at Fri Nov 14 10:36:08 2003
You gotta give it up for Microsoft, they are the Ed Wood of the software industry.
"The worst movie you've ever seen? Well, my next one will be better!" -"Ed Wood"
I don't know what is more pathetic, that they have kept up that scam for more than a decade or that there are people who still believe "the next one will be better!"
Posted by Chris at Fri Nov 14 13:10:52 2003
"The worst movie you've ever seen? Well, my next one will be better!" -"Ed Wood"
I don't know what is more pathetic, that they have kept up that scam for more than a decade or that there are people who still believe "the next one will be better!"
Posted by Chris at Fri Nov 14 13:10:52 2003
Ted,
Nice article. I have to differ with your claim that "we need more than [Nextstep dressed up]". I never used Obj-C before OS X, and I would have to say that Cocoa (nee NextStep) is one tight "managed code" set. Seems Apple has already done the cleanup in its own house that MS is in the process of undertaking. Carbon, Cocoa, Applescript, Java, Obj-C, C, C++...there are plently of ways to write apps on OS X. I can't speak for programming MS APIs, never had the pleasure, ditto Linux. After learning Cocoa and Obj-C ( a couple of weeks) writing apps is like falling off a log, without the bump at the end ;)
I'm hoping that more Linux folks will start using OS X so they have something better to shoot for than just Windows,which IMHO they are nearing parity in in terms of UI.
I enjoyed the links very much, intersting stuff, but to say that Apple is behind MS with a damn good operating system that is shipping now vs promises at least 3 years down the road is more than a bit of a stretch.
Posted by Dave Sopchak at Fri Nov 14 22:01:29 2003
Nice article. I have to differ with your claim that "we need more than [Nextstep dressed up]". I never used Obj-C before OS X, and I would have to say that Cocoa (nee NextStep) is one tight "managed code" set. Seems Apple has already done the cleanup in its own house that MS is in the process of undertaking. Carbon, Cocoa, Applescript, Java, Obj-C, C, C++...there are plently of ways to write apps on OS X. I can't speak for programming MS APIs, never had the pleasure, ditto Linux. After learning Cocoa and Obj-C ( a couple of weeks) writing apps is like falling off a log, without the bump at the end ;)
I'm hoping that more Linux folks will start using OS X so they have something better to shoot for than just Windows,which IMHO they are nearing parity in in terms of UI.
I enjoyed the links very much, intersting stuff, but to say that Apple is behind MS with a damn good operating system that is shipping now vs promises at least 3 years down the road is more than a bit of a stretch.
Posted by Dave Sopchak at Fri Nov 14 22:01:29 2003
Good article Ted. I have to side with Dave though. Let's reserve the comparisons for 2006 or whenever Longhorn is released. A lot can happen in a few years time.
Posted by Stephen at Sat Nov 15 02:01:49 2003
Posted by Stephen at Sat Nov 15 02:01:49 2003
One of the nice things about Cocoa is that it is a dynamic OO language, and thus is fairly easy to make it interoperate with Python, Java, Ruby, AppleScript, and other dynamic OO languages. (Check out RubyCocoa, etc.)
There might even be a Smalltalk system coming out that interoperates with Cocoa.
MacOS X and all previous MacOS versions already HAS a "database based file system" that Apple is beginning to deprecate in order to allow better compatbility with Microsoft and Unix/Linux file-systems.
Google for "resource-fork" and "finder info".
For example: Web Browsers on MacOS 9 used the 'comment' field of a file's Finder Info in downloaded files to store the URL the file came from.
Most programmer's text editors and IDEs on MacOS 9/X use the text file's resource fork to store font-name, font-size, and tab-setting information.
Most source-code-control systems on MacOS 9/X store information in the file's resource fork about the file's checked-in/out/modified status.
Posted by ckray at Sat Nov 15 09:11:12 2003
There might even be a Smalltalk system coming out that interoperates with Cocoa.
MacOS X and all previous MacOS versions already HAS a "database based file system" that Apple is beginning to deprecate in order to allow better compatbility with Microsoft and Unix/Linux file-systems.
Google for "resource-fork" and "finder info".
For example: Web Browsers on MacOS 9 used the 'comment' field of a file's Finder Info in downloaded files to store the URL the file came from.
Most programmer's text editors and IDEs on MacOS 9/X use the text file's resource fork to store font-name, font-size, and tab-setting information.
Most source-code-control systems on MacOS 9/X store information in the file's resource fork about the file's checked-in/out/modified status.
Posted by ckray at Sat Nov 15 09:11:12 2003
Keith,
Cocoa isn't a language, it's an API. Objective-C is the language.
I know about the resource fork -- you don't get a general query capabilility over it.
Posted by Ted Leung at Sat Nov 15 14:36:25 2003
Cocoa isn't a language, it's an API. Objective-C is the language.
I know about the resource fork -- you don't get a general query capabilility over it.
Posted by Ted Leung at Sat Nov 15 14:36:25 2003
I read this on Ted Leung. Which is a great place to read about programming. However, I can see where Ted and I differ on somethings. Read the link above and come back here.
Operating system kernels are commodity software. The interesting stuff is mov
Posted by Trackback from Tonetheman's Weblog at Sat Nov 15 20:01:20 2003
Posted by Trackback from Tonetheman's Weblog at Sat Nov 15 20:01:20 2003
typo - left out the phrased "based on"
Cocoa is based on a an dynamic language. I learned ObjectiveC about 10 years ago.
MacOS X Finder permits one to show and sort on a "Version" column - this is data from the VERS resource. Sounds like bit like a general query to me.
Posted by ckray at Sat Nov 15 21:37:22 2003
Cocoa is based on a an dynamic language. I learned ObjectiveC about 10 years ago.
MacOS X Finder permits one to show and sort on a "Version" column - this is data from the VERS resource. Sounds like bit like a general query to me.
Posted by ckray at Sat Nov 15 21:37:22 2003
One of the rules of human thought is that viewpoint determines content. Political opinion evinces this point. The world looks different to a liberal than a conservative. Same data. The Germans have a word for it: weltanschauung. Ted Leung's denigration of OS X by saying it's merely a
tricked up version of NextStep is also an example: viewpoint determines content. Predictably, he's also duly "impressed" by vaporware (Longhorn) that is years away from implementation.
Posted by David Ziff at Sat Nov 15 22:48:56 2003
tricked up version of NextStep is also an example: viewpoint determines content. Predictably, he's also duly "impressed" by vaporware (Longhorn) that is years away from implementation.
Posted by David Ziff at Sat Nov 15 22:48:56 2003
I appreciate your comments regarding the value of Longhorn, i.e. new api's, managed code... Your developer perspective gives more information than the UI centric evaluation of Paul Thurrott.
I only post, because I am ignorant as to what "dog", "dwells", "eats", and "plows" means. Anyone care to enlighten a confused soul?
Thank you,
Alex
I think "plows"="are", "dog"=can, "dwells"=more, and "eats"=come, but why?
Posted by Alex at Wed Nov 19 10:46:09 2003
I only post, because I am ignorant as to what "dog", "dwells", "eats", and "plows" means. Anyone care to enlighten a confused soul?
Thank you,
Alex
I think "plows"="are", "dog"=can, "dwells"=more, and "eats"=come, but why?
Posted by Alex at Wed Nov 19 10:46:09 2003
OK, figured it out...I linked here from a site translated from spanish by google, so it translated some of your page as well..
After posting the refreshed page reads normally. Should have thought of that. In case you're interested, "are" in spanish means plows, "can" in spanish means dog, "come" in spanish means eat, and "more" in spanish means to dwell.
:)
Posted by Alex at Wed Nov 19 11:01:57 2003
After posting the refreshed page reads normally. Should have thought of that. In case you're interested, "are" in spanish means plows, "can" in spanish means dog, "come" in spanish means eat, and "more" in spanish means to dwell.
:)
Posted by Alex at Wed Nov 19 11:01:57 2003
I suppose you also believe that microsoft invented "desktop paradigm" with windows95, don't you?
I'm afraid that, when Longhorn will be released, all TVs around the world will say it as if it was a revolutionary thing, altough macosx already has TODAY some of those "revolutionary" (?) things. The same thing happened when Windows95 was released. It even blocked the computer but it wasn't important at all, 95% of windows95 "revolutionary things" had been for 5 to 10 years already on the mac platform. Like plug'n'play (nope, it's not a M$ invention), etc.
Posted by Rafa at Thu Nov 20 07:21:29 2003
I'm afraid that, when Longhorn will be released, all TVs around the world will say it as if it was a revolutionary thing, altough macosx already has TODAY some of those "revolutionary" (?) things. The same thing happened when Windows95 was released. It even blocked the computer but it wasn't important at all, 95% of windows95 "revolutionary things" had been for 5 to 10 years already on the mac platform. Like plug'n'play (nope, it's not a M$ invention), etc.
Posted by Rafa at Thu Nov 20 07:21:29 2003
In the following link
http://www.macuarium.com/actual/especiales/2003/11/18_1984.shtml
you can read some key points about the relation among WinFS, BeOS and Mac OS X... but it is written in Spanish...
Posted by Nemo at Fri Nov 21 15:04:45 2003
http://www.macuarium.com/actual/especiales/2003/11/18_1984.shtml
you can read some key points about the relation among WinFS, BeOS and Mac OS X... but it is written in Spanish...
Posted by Nemo at Fri Nov 21 15:04:45 2003
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