Ted Leung on the air
Ted Leung on the air: Open Source, Java, Python, and ...
Ted Leung on the air: Open Source, Java, Python, and ...
Mon, 29 Mar 2004
Impressions from Pycon
I'm slowly recovering from the PyCon experience. I had a great time; the experience was very similar to an ApacheCon. I've been to some of the bigger conferences: JavaOne, Software Development, and OSCon, but there's not the same energy (for me) as PyCon or ApacheCon. I love walking through the halls knowing that people are actively working on stuff together, not just gathering to talk about it. People are excited about what they are working on and eager to share it with others. Score one for the community organized, developer centric conferences.
I found something refreshing about the Python community as well. There's no griping or fighting with Sun or arguing about the (ir)relevance of the JCP. All of that stuff is incredibly distracting, not to mention annoying. The Python folks don't have any of those concerns. Their only concerns are making Python better, and doing cool stuff with it. Sean Gallagher reports that he had several conversations on how the PSF might attract the attention of Sun or IBM. While I'm sympathetic to the desire for validation, attention, and money, I think that the Python community is better off without the large technology vendors weighing in. There are lots of small groups of people working on interesting stuff in the Python community. Once the big guys show up, all of that will be wiped out.
I also found an interesting contrast between the PSF and the ASF. The PSF is fortunate to be focused on one thing: Python. The ASF has gone from HTTP to Java, XML, Perl, Tcl, and beyond. While I appreciate the diversity of the ASF (indeed, when I go to ApacheCon I spend more time hanging out with the httpd guys rather than the Java/XML guys), I've bee pondering about the size. Is bigger truly better? So it was very interesting to see the PSF, which is a younger, smaller organization compared to the ASF.
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8 Comments |
You're probably right re: the community being better off overall without large vendor attention. Still, Apache seems to be doing fine with the support it's getting from them...isn't it?
Posted by Sean Gallagher at Tue Mar 30 06:18:22 2004
Posted by Sean Gallagher at Tue Mar 30 06:18:22 2004
Do you really think people will stop doing what they're doing just because someone like Sun or IBM starts paying attention? Did it stop people from doing interesting things with C or C++?
Posted by Bob Ippolito at Tue Mar 30 07:03:20 2004
Posted by Bob Ippolito at Tue Mar 30 07:03:20 2004
I agree that Python's hobbyist atmosphere is fun, but there is a downside: in many areas, Python doesn't offer an "obvious choice" to developers. Web frameworks is the clearest example (WebWare, Twisted, Quixote... I've lost count), but GUIs (Tkinter vs. wxPython) and others aren't far behind. Do you think the higher level of vendor interest and involvement in the ASF is (part of) the reason the ASF has been better at delivering solutions, rather than options?
Posted by Greg Wilson at Tue Mar 30 07:36:00 2004
Posted by Greg Wilson at Tue Mar 30 07:36:00 2004
Sean,
There was a period of time when a huge amount of ASF energy was taken up with conflicts between the big corporations. And sometimes the corporations have changed their plans and ASF projects have suffered as developers disappeared because their day jobs changed. This happened to Axis for a period of time. Since most of the support that we are getting is in the form of engineers assigned to work on projects, I'd say that the record is mixed.
Posted by Ted Leung at Tue Mar 30 09:51:53 2004
There was a period of time when a huge amount of ASF energy was taken up with conflicts between the big corporations. And sometimes the corporations have changed their plans and ASF projects have suffered as developers disappeared because their day jobs changed. This happened to Axis for a period of time. Since most of the support that we are getting is in the form of engineers assigned to work on projects, I'd say that the record is mixed.
Posted by Ted Leung at Tue Mar 30 09:51:53 2004
Bob,
No, I don't think people will stop because someone like Sun or IBM show up to the party. I do think that it would be much harder for people to keep up if a large company decided to throw a hundred engineers at "solving problems" with Python such as Greg mentions above. That will have the effect of marginalizing the small, creative groups, no matter how good they are. You'll get precisely the attitude that Greg has: There is the stuff being done by the "hobbyists" ("options") and the stuff being done by the big corps ("solutions").
Posted by Ted Leung at Tue Mar 30 09:59:53 2004
No, I don't think people will stop because someone like Sun or IBM show up to the party. I do think that it would be much harder for people to keep up if a large company decided to throw a hundred engineers at "solving problems" with Python such as Greg mentions above. That will have the effect of marginalizing the small, creative groups, no matter how good they are. You'll get precisely the attitude that Greg has: There is the stuff being done by the "hobbyists" ("options") and the stuff being done by the big corps ("solutions").
Posted by Ted Leung at Tue Mar 30 09:59:53 2004
Greg,
The ASF is not much better on the web framework front: we have Cocoon, Struts, Turbine, and Velocity, and that's not taking account stuff like WebWork and so forth. I don't think that the vendor interest has been a factor in the (non)proliferation of frameworks. However, Struts has way more mindshare than the others, and I believe that it is partially due to Craig being affiliated with Sun.
Posted by Ted Leung at Tue Mar 30 10:20:49 2004
The ASF is not much better on the web framework front: we have Cocoon, Struts, Turbine, and Velocity, and that's not taking account stuff like WebWork and so forth. I don't think that the vendor interest has been a factor in the (non)proliferation of frameworks. However, Struts has way more mindshare than the others, and I believe that it is partially due to Craig being affiliated with Sun.
Posted by Ted Leung at Tue Mar 30 10:20:49 2004
As far web frameworks (outside of cgi) I agree that the multitude of frameworks is an issue. I have a feeling mod_python 3.1 will resolve some of them. There are several nice templating systems that can plug-in outside of the basic psps.
In terms of acceptance I think that
1) more use in CS programs for schools (like that Zelle new book)
2) a JIT - or compiled python to remove the speed question
3) Inclusion in more commercial products eg
- perl is the engine in IBM's Tivoli
- TCL in several products
- VB in IBM's Lotus Notes
Posted by Anthony at Tue Mar 30 10:21:17 2004
In terms of acceptance I think that
1) more use in CS programs for schools (like that Zelle new book)
2) a JIT - or compiled python to remove the speed question
3) Inclusion in more commercial products eg
- perl is the engine in IBM's Tivoli
- TCL in several products
- VB in IBM's Lotus Notes
Posted by Anthony at Tue Mar 30 10:21:17 2004
Thanks for the great complements for the Python community. I agree entirely with your comments about the energy and positive attitude of the participants in PyCon. The conference closed on a warm and sunny spring day. It was a fitting end to the seven days of sprinting and networking at the conference. Participants ordered food delivered to the roof top patio and lingered on well past dark to enjoy each others company.
I think this will be a banner year for Python. It has been a long time in the making. This will be another example of an overnight success that was only 13 years in the making. (That's right. Python was first released 13 years ago.)
I have one minor nit with this blog entry. Ted said, "So it was very interesting to see the PSF, which is a younger, smaller organization compared to the ASF."
We are smaller than ASF, and technically the PSF is younger than the ASF, but the informal Python community has several years on Apache. According to www.apache.org, "the first official public release (0.6.2) of the Apache server in April 1995."
Guido, Ken Manheimer, and I organize the first Python workshop in November of 1994. This is a nit, but it might be of interest to some new Python users to learn that the Python community has been operating in this casual and cordial mode for many years.
It's great to see Python finally being appreciated by the industry. Like a fine wine, it has been worth the wait.
Thanks for all the blogging on Python. You've done a great job of capturing the feeling of the sprints and the conference.
Posted by Michael McLay at Thu Apr 8 20:57:20 2004
I think this will be a banner year for Python. It has been a long time in the making. This will be another example of an overnight success that was only 13 years in the making. (That's right. Python was first released 13 years ago.)
I have one minor nit with this blog entry. Ted said, "So it was very interesting to see the PSF, which is a younger, smaller organization compared to the ASF."
We are smaller than ASF, and technically the PSF is younger than the ASF, but the informal Python community has several years on Apache. According to www.apache.org, "the first official public release (0.6.2) of the Apache server in April 1995."
Guido, Ken Manheimer, and I organize the first Python workshop in November of 1994. This is a nit, but it might be of interest to some new Python users to learn that the Python community has been operating in this casual and cordial mode for many years.
It's great to see Python finally being appreciated by the industry. Like a fine wine, it has been worth the wait.
Thanks for all the blogging on Python. You've done a great job of capturing the feeling of the sprints and the conference.
Posted by Michael McLay at Thu Apr 8 20:57:20 2004
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