Ted Leung on the air
Ted Leung on the air: Open Source, Java, Python, and ...
Ted Leung on the air: Open Source, Java, Python, and ...
Tue, 24 Jan 2006
Hmm. That's the only reason why I still buy Windows boxes. To each his own, I suppose.
Posted by Joe Grossberg at Tue Jan 24 04:51:29 2006
Dual Booting an Intel Mac - Are you insane?
[00:26] |
[computers/operating_systems/macosx] |
# |
TB |
F |
G |
15 Comments |
I'm really surprised by the furor over dual (or even triple booting) Intel Macs. It's perfectly legitimate to want to run some Windows or Linux (or OpenBSD, or GNU Hurd, or L4 or Plan9) on your Intel based Macintosh. It's just that rebooting into a different operating system is so 20th century. The only explanation I can think of is that people are forgetting about technologies like VMWare, VirtualPC, Xen, and Bochs. When I used an Intel box regularly (not that long ago), I had triple boot. It was a nightmare. Managing all the different partition types, figuring out how to layout the partitions so they could boot, and so on. That was bad enough. But rebooting?!
I think we've all become brain damaged by how bad computers are today, to the point that rebooting a machine to get access to a few Windows or Linux apps sounds like a good idea. In my normal working configuration, the machine has been running for weeks. I have tons of applications open, I have tons of windows open and spatially arranged. That represents a week (or more) worth of working context. There's no way I want to destroy all of that just so I can run Microsoft Money (the only Windows app we still use -- besides a tax program) to update my financial information from online.
Fortunately, I don't think we'll have to do that. Some number of the virtualization systems that I mentioned above will come to market, and then we'll be able to run those other OS's and their apps in virtualized processes that are accessible from the OS X desktop environment. Now that would actually be a productivity increase. The only reason I can think of for dual booting would be to play Windows games, and I don't have the time to do that.
"The only reason I can think of for dual booting would be to play Windows games, and I don't have the time to do that."
Hmm. That's the only reason why I still buy Windows boxes. To each his own, I suppose.
Posted by Joe Grossberg at Tue Jan 24 04:51:29 2006
You know, you do a thing long enough, and you fall into the "That's the way I've always done it" trap. Now that I think about it, it always has been kind of a pain in the rear to go from Win to Linux to BSD to Solaris. Maybe it's time to shell out a few more $$ and get VMWare and be done with it.
Posted by Sjan Evardsson at Tue Jan 24 11:18:59 2006
Posted by Sjan Evardsson at Tue Jan 24 11:18:59 2006
I am one of those who do want dual booting to work.
I have not forgotten about VPC, VMWare, and DarWINE - in fact, my money is on the last to provide an elegant solution for my needs. Dual booting, though, seems likely to work more quickly, which allows me to use the system earlier than waiting for virtualization tech.
Also, I know people who are current windows users, and who are willing to give MacOS X a shot, but that require the ability to back out of their choice by installing windows. Essentially, their workflow is entirely windows now, and it will take time to move it.
I typically have one windows program I need at any given moment, depending on my contract. Access is common, as are custom C# database tools. Perhaps Visual Source Safe. At the moment, I am doing pure Java work, so I do not need windows at all, but I know it will be back.
Scott
Posted by Scott Ellsworth at Tue Jan 24 11:46:20 2006
I have not forgotten about VPC, VMWare, and DarWINE - in fact, my money is on the last to provide an elegant solution for my needs. Dual booting, though, seems likely to work more quickly, which allows me to use the system earlier than waiting for virtualization tech.
Also, I know people who are current windows users, and who are willing to give MacOS X a shot, but that require the ability to back out of their choice by installing windows. Essentially, their workflow is entirely windows now, and it will take time to move it.
I typically have one windows program I need at any given moment, depending on my contract. Access is common, as are custom C# database tools. Perhaps Visual Source Safe. At the moment, I am doing pure Java work, so I do not need windows at all, but I know it will be back.
Scott
Posted by Scott Ellsworth at Tue Jan 24 11:46:20 2006
Well, I'm with Scott on this, or at least one of his stated reasons;
Making buying a Mac a "no risk" proposition. This of course, assumes that Apple would be willing to accept people running Windows on their machines. But it sure fixes that problem people have with "But what about all my old software?"
Mind you, I still think that Wine would be a better real solution for day-to-day applications, anyways, that's what I'm pinning my hopes on.
Posted by W. Ian Blanton at Tue Jan 24 19:26:05 2006
Making buying a Mac a "no risk" proposition. This of course, assumes that Apple would be willing to accept people running Windows on their machines. But it sure fixes that problem people have with "But what about all my old software?"
Mind you, I still think that Wine would be a better real solution for day-to-day applications, anyways, that's what I'm pinning my hopes on.
Posted by W. Ian Blanton at Tue Jan 24 19:26:05 2006
Aren't you special? I guess because you don't need it and don't have time for it, nobody else should either. I thought all the open source/free software zealots of the world were all about choice.
Posted by Me at Wed Jan 25 06:48:29 2006
Posted by Me at Wed Jan 25 06:48:29 2006
Am I daft or am I right in noticing that none of the OS emulators listed run on OS/X, let alone the X86 version of it.
Posted by Rootman at Wed Jan 25 09:07:54 2006
Posted by Rootman at Wed Jan 25 09:07:54 2006
Ted, thanks for the thoughts and the list of emulators. I've got to run Windows, but I also have need of Linux from time to time, and coLinux has helped me. Perhaps it may help others, too.
Posted by Bill Harris at Thu Jan 26 20:01:51 2006
Posted by Bill Harris at Thu Jan 26 20:01:51 2006
It's interesting your take on dual booting. I want one of the new MacBook Pros so I can do just that but never considered using a virtual machine to run Windows or Linux from Mac OSX.
I have run both Microsoft Virtual PC and VMWare Workstation on Windows XP to run Linux in VM's but the performance was poor. The systems I have used have been 3ghz, 2G systems.
So what are options under OSX to run Linux or Windows and have decent performance? If Microsoft and VMWare can't get it right I wonder if others can.
I would like to hear some solid feedback on what the real options are if not dual booting.
Posted by Rob Bazinet at Thu Feb 9 18:48:05 2006
I have run both Microsoft Virtual PC and VMWare Workstation on Windows XP to run Linux in VM's but the performance was poor. The systems I have used have been 3ghz, 2G systems.
So what are options under OSX to run Linux or Windows and have decent performance? If Microsoft and VMWare can't get it right I wonder if others can.
I would like to hear some solid feedback on what the real options are if not dual booting.
Posted by Rob Bazinet at Thu Feb 9 18:48:05 2006
For CPU intensive stuff, things like VMWare or VirutalPC do pretty well, but it's in virtualized I/O that you really get pounded.
Something like Xen http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/netos/xen coupled with the Intel VT instructions seems most promising. This hinges in the availability of VT in the Core Duos, which is somewhat in doubt, at least for the current steppings.
Posted by Ted Leung at Thu Feb 9 22:47:05 2006
Something like Xen http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/netos/xen coupled with the Intel VT instructions seems most promising. This hinges in the availability of VT in the Core Duos, which is somewhat in doubt, at least for the current steppings.
Posted by Ted Leung at Thu Feb 9 22:47:05 2006
Very interesting that we say nearly the same thing. I wrote about dual booting being 20th century on Jan 14.
http://www.capmac.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=7404
Great minds think alike?
Posted by Richard Cardona at Sun Feb 12 07:24:41 2006
http://www.capmac.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=7404
Great minds think alike?
Posted by Richard Cardona at Sun Feb 12 07:24:41 2006
I don't know why, but all this dual boot bashing just seems sort of closed minded... like your way of working with computers is the only way that makes any sense. Frankly I'd like to have a dual boot mac that ALSO has vmware or another emulator running in OS X. I'm not going to even bother explaining why because you would just think its soooooooo insane.
Posted by anon jones at Sat Feb 18 11:32:21 2006
Posted by anon jones at Sat Feb 18 11:32:21 2006
anon_jones,
Actually, I think you have it backwards. The majority of people are talking about dual booting, and only a small minority are talking about virtualization. I don't see any bounties being offered for virtualization on the Mac. I want to make sure that the companies working on virtualization know that there is a market for their product.
Dual booting is a foregone conclusion in my mind. It might not be XP, it might be Vista, but I am confident that those who want to dual book will be able to. But I don't want to be without virtualization software because the vendors though there was no market.
Posted by Ted Leung at Sat Feb 18 23:32:52 2006
Actually, I think you have it backwards. The majority of people are talking about dual booting, and only a small minority are talking about virtualization. I don't see any bounties being offered for virtualization on the Mac. I want to make sure that the companies working on virtualization know that there is a market for their product.
Dual booting is a foregone conclusion in my mind. It might not be XP, it might be Vista, but I am confident that those who want to dual book will be able to. But I don't want to be without virtualization software because the vendors though there was no market.
Posted by Ted Leung at Sat Feb 18 23:32:52 2006
Ted,
I really don't think I have anything backwards... I was reacting to your post specifically, and the many others on the web who are "dual boot bashing." I acknowledge that there are indeed many more people excitedly pursuing dual boot, but there is a also a surprisingly large number of people who seem to be in your camp. I don't want to antagonize anymore than my first post (it reads a little harsh now that I look back at it). So I will try to lay out my reasoning in a constructive (hopefully non-troll-like) way.
First of all, the title of your original post was, "Dual Booting an Intel Mac - Are you insane?"
Your second paragraph starts, "I think we've all become <b>brain damaged<b /> by how bad computers are today, to the point that rebooting a machine to get access to a <b>few<b /> Windows or Linux apps sounds like a good idea." You go on to describe how <b>you<b /> specifically work with computers and how the only use for dual booting that <b>you<b /> can think of is for playing games, which you don't have time for anyway.
I simply feel your argument is presumptuous and closed minded because it suggests that your way of working with computers is the only logical way, and that any other way is "brain damaged" and "insane."
As far as discussions on the web at large, as I said above, you are not the only one who is "dual boot bashing" out there. I acknowledge your point that there is indeed quite a bit of talk on the other side (and the contest with $11K+ prize), but my post was a reaction to the plentiful amount "bashing" that is going on as well.
By the way, there is also a virtualization contest (smaller prize), and obviously a lot of talk going into straight-up emulation.
Posted by anon_jones at Wed Feb 22 11:52:11 2006
I really don't think I have anything backwards... I was reacting to your post specifically, and the many others on the web who are "dual boot bashing." I acknowledge that there are indeed many more people excitedly pursuing dual boot, but there is a also a surprisingly large number of people who seem to be in your camp. I don't want to antagonize anymore than my first post (it reads a little harsh now that I look back at it). So I will try to lay out my reasoning in a constructive (hopefully non-troll-like) way.
First of all, the title of your original post was, "Dual Booting an Intel Mac - Are you insane?"
Your second paragraph starts, "I think we've all become <b>brain damaged<b /> by how bad computers are today, to the point that rebooting a machine to get access to a <b>few<b /> Windows or Linux apps sounds like a good idea." You go on to describe how <b>you<b /> specifically work with computers and how the only use for dual booting that <b>you<b /> can think of is for playing games, which you don't have time for anyway.
I simply feel your argument is presumptuous and closed minded because it suggests that your way of working with computers is the only logical way, and that any other way is "brain damaged" and "insane."
As far as discussions on the web at large, as I said above, you are not the only one who is "dual boot bashing" out there. I acknowledge your point that there is indeed quite a bit of talk on the other side (and the contest with $11K+ prize), but my post was a reaction to the plentiful amount "bashing" that is going on as well.
By the way, there is also a virtualization contest (smaller prize), and obviously a lot of talk going into straight-up emulation.
Posted by anon_jones at Wed Feb 22 11:52:11 2006
Forgetting about, or too cheap to use? I can dual-boot for $0 extra, but VMWare and VirtualPC cost some amount of money (more than $100, less than $1000). Bochs is an emulator (AFAICT), so it's going to be a serious performance hit. And I don't see Mac OS on the Xen compatibility list.
So those of us considering dual-booting aren't forgetful or brain-damaged -- just cheap! :-)
Posted by ken at Tue Feb 28 18:27:00 2006
So those of us considering dual-booting aren't forgetful or brain-damaged -- just cheap! :-)
Posted by ken at Tue Feb 28 18:27:00 2006
UPDATE 1: Looks like the competition has been won. Meanwhile if you are searching for a virtualization solution, keep an eye on Q.
UPDATE 2: I know everyone else in the blogosphere is banging on about Boot Camp but just in case you didn’t know...
Posted by Trackback from The News before The News at Sat Apr 15 20:07:08 2006
Posted by Trackback from The News before The News at Sat Apr 15 20:07:08 2006
You can subscribe to an RSS feed of the comments for this blog:
Add a comment here:
You can use some HTML tags in the comment text:
To insert a URI, just type it -- no need to write an anchor tag.
Allowable html tags are:
You can also use some Wiki style:
URI => [uri title]
<em> => _emphasized text_
<b> => *bold text*
Ordered list => consecutive lines starting spaces and an asterisk
Add a comment here:
You can use some HTML tags in the comment text:To insert a URI, just type it -- no need to write an anchor tag.
Allowable html tags are:
<a href>, <em>, <i>, <b>, <blockquote>, <br/>, <p>, <code>, <pre>, <cite>, <sub> and <sup>.You can also use some Wiki style:
URI => [uri title]
<em> => _emphasized text_
<b> => *bold text*
Ordered list => consecutive lines starting spaces and an asterisk
![[Valid RSS]](http://www.sauria.com/blog/images/valid-rss.png "Validate my RSS feed"){kind=small}
