Ted Leung on the air: Open Source, Java, Python, and ...
Tim Bray has reported on a dynamic languages summit that was held at Sun recently. Aside from the timing (years too late), I think that this is a very positive development. There were key implementors of multiple languages (the notable exceptions being Lisp and Smalltalk folks), the list of stuff issues/features that was discussed seems to be the right list, and (most importantly) it looks like there is some acceptance of the fact that the JVM bytecode set could do more for dynamic languages.
My guess of a timeline looks something like this:
3-6 months to decide whether bytecode instructions are really necessary or not
Another year for a JSR to approve those instructions
Another year to do the work to the VM (including compatibility testing etc)
As much as 18 months (is the JDK on an 18month cycle now?) sync of with a JDK release, depending on the JDK schedule.
So, we're looking at 2 years (at least), or 2007, before anyone would be able to count on JDK support for their dynamic language implementation. Once that JDK ships, there's the typical adoption cycle, which means another few years before you'd be able to deploy a dynamic language solution on top of the JVM. That's a long time. Fortunately for Sun, there's not a lot of dynamic language support in CLR 2.0, and that doesn't even ship until 2006, or as late as 2007. So a MS designed and implemented dynamic language enhanced CLR could also be quite far off. 2010, maybe? It has a nice ring to it.
This means that anybody else has 2-5 years to get their act together and get going.
They already have two critical ones that expand the scope of things you can do : Method pointers and tail recursion. I'm not quite sure what other features would be required for dynamic languages to work better.
Posted by Andrew Shuttlewood at Thu Dec 9 05:57:25 2004
The guy who did IronPython has since been hired by MS to work on CLR, suggesting that MS's CLR 2.0 will have good dynamic language support.
Posted by James Thiele at Thu Dec 9 09:13:33 2004
Posted by Tim Bray at Thu Dec 9 09:43:05 2004
I assume you mean Sun when you say "they"
Tim's post talks about the areas where bytecode support would help performance. Support for closures and continuations are examples.
Posted by Ted Leung at Thu Dec 9 10:43:11 2004
I'm well aware that Jim Huginin is working at Microsoft. He's only been there since August, which is too short for his work to make it into a shipping CLR.
Posted by Ted Leung at Thu Dec 9 10:44:19 2004
The timeline is for JDK support, the bytecode changes. Of course things like Jython and JRuby and Groovy will continue to run, and people will continue to use them in production, just as they already do. If your application were heavily closure or continuation based, you'd notice the support.
Nothing would make me happier than for that timeline to be too long. Then again, this is software that we are talking about.
Posted by Ted Leung at Thu Dec 9 10:48:31 2004
Posted by Alan Green at Thu Dec 9 18:38:37 2004
Posted by Dan at Fri Dec 10 06:43:10 2004
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